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Post by kdoske on Jul 24, 2011 9:09:30 GMT
Hello, as you can see, I'm new! I don't really see a diagnosis area so I'm going to just post it in my intro.
I live in Alaska and have lived with my wife for 5 or 6 years. I love her very much but she has an odor problem. Strangely enough she doesn't notice the smell at all. If I had to describe the smell I would say its something like onions but not exactly. Its not so bad that it will clear a room but its an off putting smell that is definitely noticed by most people. Some days are worse then others. Its stronger under her arm pits but it definitely comes out from all of her skin on her body. She can take a shower and in a hour or two it will start coming back and sometimes the shower wont take it away at all. It will only make it less subtle. Sometimes I feel like the soap might actually make it worse. I hope this isn't too graphic, but even when I kiss her breast, and.....other regions..... I can taste it in my mouth. Maybe that's just the sweat from the bra, I'm not sure. Anyway, its not just body order. She also has bad breath as well. Morning, noon, and night. She can brush her teeth and a couple mins later its back. Again, strangely enough she can never tell her breath smells bad.
Like I said, I love her to death and I have never had the heart to say anything. Recently though, she told me story about her old job and how her boss would start singing the song that Feebee would sing from the TV show 'Friends' when he ran into her sometimes. You know the song, "smelly cat, smelly cat, its not your fault....". Anyway she said she asked him why he kept singing the song and he just said that she reminded him of Feebee. I nodded my head but I instantly knew the real reason. Even then I couldn't say anything. I wanted punch the guy in the face and cry at the same time because it breaks my heart that someone could be so cruel.
so, after her story I just feel like its time I said something. First though, I wanted to look for solutions so I was hoping someone her could help me narrow down what might be the cause based on the symptoms. I am hoping that once I know whats causing it I can actually find something to help her with the problem.
Thanks guys...
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jcc34
Junior Member
Posts: 86
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Post by jcc34 on Jul 24, 2011 19:55:03 GMT
Hi kdoske
A few people mentioned an onion like odour, I think they've all been female as well interestingly. My suspicion would be it could be a problem of sulfur metabolism/ digestion. Possibly a low sulfur diet might help? I'm not an expert but I think this would involve avoiding garlic, onion family veg, cruciferous veg, eggs, cheese, animal meat, some nuts. Limited fish as protein. That's quite restrictive so your wife would have to want to do it.
A smell from the chest is quite possible, apocrine glands are located there.
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mpdela
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by mpdela on Jul 26, 2011 0:31:48 GMT
Hi kdoske, Your wife is a lucky lady to have you as a husband. It's obvious you love her and want to help her. I must say that I really appreciate it when my husband tells me in a sensitive manner when I'm smelling. He knows that my sons and I tend to have this difficult to control problem, and we need feedback from him who loves us, as opposed to cruel comments from strangers or insensitive people. He knows that we've figured out ways to control it with a diet similar to what jcc34 mentions. I would add to jcc34's diet is to avoid spicy hot salsa, soy sauce, and foods containing MSG. Now that we've said what to avoid, it's also good to say what to replace it with. Raw onions and garlic are very rich in sulfur, but if you cook only a small amount in a large pot of food, the sulfur either breaks down or becomes gas, and then the food will still have a descent flavor (not strong at all), but the sulfur content is much lower. I replace onions and garlic with lemon pepper on a big pot of food, though not too much pepper is good either. This diet does work in reducing odor in some cases significantly, and in others somewhat. What makes the odor fluctuate most is the lack of willpower to stay on the diet. Hormones may also trigger odor flare-ups. When the odor isn't localized in one area alone, but rather seems to come out through the lungs (breath), urine, perspiration, and saliva, the source appears to be systemic. It is theorized that it could be the result of a deficient metabolic process, such as in the case of Trimethylaminuria. Keep in mind this would not be the only type of metabolic deficiency, there could be other deficient metabolic processes, such as the sulfur one jcc34 refers to. It could also be caused by an imbalance of microorganisms in the gut (gut dysbiosis, or leaky gut) that produce certain chemicals that go through the blood stream and is secreted by cleansing organs in the body, like the sweat glands, salivary grands, kidneys (urine), lungs (breath), etc. As a united international community, we are all still trying to find answers to the causes of all different types of body odor conditions. I would suggest you encourage your wife to come and talk with us. We can give her recommendations on the body cleansers she could use, and how to do her laundry to help her neutralize the pH of the odors on her body and clothes. If you think her odor is acidic then she would benefit from cleansers that are alkaline with a high pH, if her odor is more alkaline, then she would benefit from cleansers with low pH. When in doubt, it's best to look for cleansers that are pH balanced. Most importantly, I hope you and your wife are comforted knowing that you are not alone. We are a large international community that share your same experiences and are united in our efforts to find solutions. María
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Post by joliepitt on Jul 26, 2011 3:22:24 GMT
Hi kdoske:
This is such a touching story. I'm happy for your wife that she's got a very understanding husband unlike me who can never get a boyfriend because of my body odor and BB. I've been having the same issue since childhood and it has become worse now that I'm in my quarter life.
Please do her a favor. Try MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) as it helps combat or lessen the effects that manifest through body odor brought about by high sulfur foods. Try it at least for a month. Tell her to start from the lowest recommended dosage and increase it week by week. I'm using the powder from NowFoods. The bottled powder is kinda expensive but in 2 weeks of bearing its bitter taste, my body odor has improved. Bad breath is still a problem though but hydrogen peroxide helps immediately. Regarding the onion underarm odor, I mask it with baking soda every after bath. Commercial deodorants don't help so let her stay away from them.
I also would like to ask you. Since when did she start to smell like such? Does her private part down there smells like onions too and does it get worse every monthly period? Because if she has been smelling like that ever since she hit puberty, then we're in the same boat. I guess jcc34 and mpdela are right. It could be due to impaired sulfur oxidation and/or hormone imbalance.
Based on my own experiment, sugar, spices including the powder and liquid seasonings, oily foods like peanuts, wheat and cruciferous veggies make me smell. You don't actually have to avoid them 100% but don't eat them everyday, every week. Daily bowel movement also helps flush out whatever is in the stomach. MSM acts as detox and though my sweat odor has improved, I still got few more things to supplement my diet like goldenseal and GSE. B complex also seems to work.
Please be aware that MSM may have side effects expecially if you overdose on it. I've experienced palpitations at night which affects my breathing problems. But it has cleared up my face, lessen my dark eye circles and my hair (as expected) has become thicker. Effects may vary from person to person so just give it a try.
Patience does help too. Thanks for sharing this case, at least now I can absolutely move on and feel normal again because in some other parts of the world, some people are going through what I exactly experience.
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Post by kdoske on Jul 26, 2011 6:40:40 GMT
Wow, thanks guys. This is some great information. I really appreciate the support.
mpdela: your answer makes perfect sense. It definitely sounds like a metabolic deficiency. I must admit though her urine does seem to have the typical urine odor though. I have never noticed a bad smell from it besides the typical urine smell. Granted I have never held it up to nose for inspection, lol. So, I'm not sure if that's the deal breaker for metabolic deficiency.
Jolie: I couldn't say when it started. The first day I met her I noticed it. I asked around to a few people that new her longer then I. Everyone that I asked seemed to notice the smell and they all said it was typically that way but no one ever brought it up. Besides that I couldn't say. Her privates do have the odor as well. It isn't terrible though. Some days worse then others. Just a strong raw onion garlic kind of smell. The taste is similar both on her privates and breast. Sometimes I can taste it on her extremities but that is very seldom. I would imagine I would taste it on her armpits as well but I'm just not that adventurous--lol.
Its strange though that most people on here know that they have an odor. I wonder why she can't. I know its hard to 'know your own bran' so to speak, but I always found it puzzling that she never noticed at all.
I'm going to look up the suggestions here, maybe print out some things, and then sit down and have the talk. I will let you guys know how it goes. Once again thanks so much. I'm glade my story could help you Jolie. Hang in there, loves a funny thing.
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mpdela
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by mpdela on Jul 27, 2011 5:23:15 GMT
Hi kdoske, You raise a very interesting question that can be very confusing to all sufferers and their families. Here are some concepts suggested by experts based on research. 1. The process of acclimatization/acclimation: In layman's terms, people get used to common scents/odors, and eventually don't detect them. For example, most people can detect the scent of a new shampoo, but in time, stop detecting the scent. After not using the same brand for a while, going back to using it at gain can result in scent detection for a short period of time again. The same thing happens to body odor sufferers regarding detecting (or not detecting) their own odor and the same thing happens to the family. 2. Odor threshhold: Different people and animals have different odor threshhold, and its sensitivity fluctuates at different intervals of each person's life (sufferer and non-sufferer) . There are hints of differences in the odor detection capacity fluctuation in the same being influenced by age, sex, genetics, and other factors. 3. Transient or intermittent odor/: Most sufferers don't have constant odor, though some do. For example, women's odor tends to be triggered by during menstruation (hormonal changes). Physical and/or emotional stress in men and women can also trigger intermittent or transient odor episodes, as well as diet and environmental factors.
Additional Reading: Keyword, Olfactory.
Hope this helps.
María
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Post by Arun Nagrath on Jul 30, 2011 21:15:57 GMT
Welcome Kdoske. Your wife's case is very unusual in that it is very rare for spouse to post on these message boards.
I am absolutely delighted that you have posted about your wife because it provides a unique angle. For example, since your wife can not smell herself, she would face a hugely difficult task to modify her odour all by herself. It would be like asking a blind lady to do her eyelashes (very difficult indeed).
With your help, she could stand a chance of reducing her odour at least a little bit (we don't know the extent yet). It is reported that onion body odour will still be present regardless of what medical products are taken. However, diet may play a role (avoiding onions, garlic etc). Also, frequent bathing or the use of wet wipes will help.
I am a Hospital Pharmacist with some experience of odour research and am especially interested in your wife's case because of the fact that she can get accurate feedback about her odour from you.
This means we don't need to analyse her odour with machines (I don't have lab access and it is very difficult anyway). Instead we can just focus on treatment.
If you would be willing to accept my help. I would be delighted to research with you what products help (creams, tablets, diets, body washes etc). Ofcourse, we would not use any harmful products or even prescription medicines. Other than changing the diet to exclude onions, garlic etc, I would mainly be interested in modifying her condition by using medicated wet wipes and skin products. I would treat her breath odour by using a tongue scraper and mouth rinses.
I would not charge you anything since treating your wife's condition is likely to benefit any other people with onion body odour but who can't smell themselves. All I ask is that you post openly here about the true results we achieve with your wife.
Are you prepared to accept our proposal to do a case study on your wife's condition by trying various creams, tablets, diets, body washes etc? I can not guarantee success but I would love to try to help. I am prepared to pay the cost of any treatments I suggest.
If you wish to talk confidentially about this proposal, you can even send me a PM (personal message) and I will PM you back with my phone number. Alternatively, my email address is ArunNagrath@hotmail.com
There's just one thing I wanted to say about ethical considerations. I have assumed by what you have told us that your wife is aware that she has this condition although she can't actually smell it herself. Am I right? Also, has she talked openly about her condition with you?
The reason I wanted to clarify these 2 points is that if you saw a doctor about this condition and told him that your wife has this condition but can not smell it herself his approach might be:-
'It's better not to admit to your wife that she has this condition as it will just make her feel very self-conscious and depressed, especially as there is nothing that can be done medically to treat her condition (other than to avoid eating onions, garlic etc, showering more frequently and using a minty mouthwash)'. Arun
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Post by kdoske on Nov 27, 2011 3:22:09 GMT
Sorry for the delay guys. Well as you can expect when I brought it up it wasn't pretty. After I explained it to her like I said I would above she started to realize the signs. Having said that, after 4 months we have figured it out. Not only that but she can actually wear perfume on most days and I can smell it hours later. Some days better then others. Some days the onion type order is still present but so subtle its doesn't even mater, Others where its non-existent, and a few were its back to the way it was. This is how we figured it out--for the most part. After reading up on it, we pretty much figured it was food related. So, we started buy eating the most bland plain foods possible. Things like white rice and chicken breast with no spices and things like egg whites for breakfast--torture! We did this for almost a week for breakfast, lunch , and dinner. Well guess what, the smell pretty much went away! So, from there we had a day or two where we would introduce one thing with our bland food meals. If no smell occurred on the first day then we would try it one more day. If nothing by two days then we would move one. If something did make her smell we would go back to bland or anything we knew already didn't make her smell for two-three days until she was 'smell neutral' again. We did this for literally 3.5 months or so! By the end I have a nice little list of spices, oils, foods that created a result. We put them on scale of 1-10 of 'smelliness output', LOL!! I know, it sounds funny but a few days in it became a game for both of us that actually would make us laugh so we kind of made a big joke out of it. I'm not going to type out the 70 or so things on my list but here is pretty much the general discovery we made. Very spicy foods. (Black Pepper doesn't seem to mater but things like curry and cayenne pepper will produce a response) Large amounts of garlic Fatty foods, and anything cook in oil! (This is a big one. When she eats foods that are deep fried or covered in grease, forget about it) On another note, when she is on her period none of this maters. The smell will be there slightly even with low smelliness output food are used. When she works out even on the good days the odor is there until she showers. Also, I can just barley taste it in certain areas of her body on the days were I swear the smell wasn't even there. Arun Nagrath, your offer is incredibly generous. It looks like I wont need to take you up on it though. We pretty much have it figured out without coverups or meds I'm so ecstatic, i just want to thank this forum and the responses I received here. This forum has changed my wife's life and I can never thank you enough.
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Post by Carebear on Nov 27, 2011 21:35:10 GMT
I am glad your wife has got her issue largely under control, I recently took the Neocymin and had absolutely no odour for 2 weeks, I never felt so confident and must admit I even cheated with a few foods and nothing at all in terms of odour. I have no problem sticking to the diet when I am at home but find it hard if I am at friends houses or my boyfriends parents, actually it is almost impossible. I was at a friends house and she had chilli flavoured crisps and I succumbed and the next day I thought I could detect a sicky smell of myself so I am going to have to abstain although I have lost so much weight on this diet I feel that my friends and co are watching every bite I put in my mouth as I have not told them all about my diagnosis of TMAU so I think they have concluded I am not eating enough. Like Maria said I am going to be extra strict with this diet and I am going to keep a food diary also marking my days on my period to see if instances may be more common in the week leading up to my time of the month. My diet is bland every morning porridge and rice milk, morning snack a pear, mango or grapes, lunch usually salad or home made vegetable soup. Dinners are freefrom pasta with olive oil, sea salt, roasted safe veg and black pepper, baked potato with veg. Vegetable lasagne with freefrom pasta, rice milk, gluten free flour and some butter to make white sauce with home made potato wedges drizzled in olive oil, sea salt and black pepper. White rice and roasted safe veg. Tabouleuh made with cous cous, parsley, tomato, olive oil, lemon zest and juice and cucumber and I will have chicken perhaps a drumstick and thigh from butcher no breadcrumbs and I roast in the oven with some honey and olive oil with this meal for protein. Bagel with 2 pork sausages and mushrooms not every week but some. I will normally have meat (either chicken or sausages) twice a week but try to have these at opposite ends of the week. I might also make celery soup or carrot and parsnip soup, not a huge fan of these but it is something different. I usually allow myself something sweet only rarely I might have a slice of home made apple tart my mum makes without egg just flour, water, butter, apple and sugar or shortbread cooked by myself with water, sugar, flour and butter, only once a week maybe twice at the most otherwise its a piece of fruit. I take Nullo, charcoal, ultimate flora critical care 50 billion priobotic and B2. The diet is not easy by no means but I will continue to do my best with it. Any advice or comments on my diet good or bad i would really like to hear them.
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Post by anony on Nov 28, 2011 8:46:45 GMT
I am so glad your wife has found relief, and am ecstatic that you took the time to work through the foods she can eat. Most people don't want to do this - they just want to be told what to eat, and complain it is too hard. Or eat like 2 or 3 things for a few weeks starving themselves, and blame it in the diet.
IT CAN BE DONE. Great job! Again soo happy she got results! She is so lucky to have you! I wish there were more of us who had someone to assist with this terrible disorder.
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Post by Arun Nagrath on Nov 28, 2011 17:59:53 GMT
Hi Kdoske, I am so glad you came back to tell us the outcome even though your wife no longer needs any help from this forum. You faced an incredibly difficult task and the approach of being open with her obviously paid off.
The dilemma of whether or not to tell a loved one they smell, is a difficult one:-
1 If you told her but the two of you weren't able to improve the odour, then this may have made your wife very self-conscious but for no real benefit
2 On the other hand, if you didn't tell her, then this might have been an even greater disservice since some of her friends and work colleagues might continue to reject her and she would be forever robbed of the opportunity of remedying the situation.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. It is a blessing that you loved her enough to help her work through her difficulties knowing that she could certainly never do this by herself. I think you deserve a medal mate! I wish more of our Group members had partners they could confide in to tackle this problem.
Sadly, the reality of the situation is that a partner will generally consult a doctor first about his partner's condition. The doctor will invariably tell the person not to bring up the subject as it can cause anxiety, stress, depression and even suicidality in severe cases.
I wish doctors could read this thread and realize that they themselves are sometimes unwittingly the barriers to research.
Kdoske, you have done an amazing piece of work rating the foods on a scale of 1-10 of 'smelliness output'. Let me tell you that this research of yours is worth it's weight in gold. No scientist or doctor could come close to matching this!
PLEASE don't discard the list. You would be helping such members enormously by one day posting your complete food list together with the associated odour ratings in the Sub-forum called Success Stories. That sub-forum is our 'Hall of fame'. If I suffered from onion odour myself, I would even pay good money to see your list!
Another important finding of yours is that onion odour does not come just from arm pits or groin but can come from the entire body surface. Furthermore, you say that your wife has BOTH breath and body odour.
To date, the dental profession has not adequately studied this type of breath odour of non-oral origin. I have always believed this to be of metabolic (systemic) origin. Arun
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jcc34
Junior Member
Posts: 86
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Post by jcc34 on Nov 29, 2011 0:16:04 GMT
Wow, I guess we chalk this up as a rare thing - a 'success story'. Very interesting that oily fatty food was found to be a primary culprit, not a lot of people have mentioned that before. I'd be interested to know if there was a connection with sulphur or not. Just goes to show, there's no real substitute for real trial and error, it's the same for food allergies / intolerances. Well done Kdoske.
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