Post by Arun Nagrath on Nov 3, 2011 19:42:36 GMT
From Archive 31/12/09
vilenin89
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 174
Gas Chromatography
For anyone who has an unexplained fecal odor, even of the room clearing variety and suspects TMAU or even tested for it and tested negative might consider getting this test done. I haven't yet personally. I think my condition has improved a little bit, but I've thought this before and I need to wait till I get more confirmation.
gas--- smell it causes
Methyl Meracapatan (CH3SH) - feces
Hydrogen Sulfide (H2s) - rotten eggs
Dimethyl Sulfide (CH3SCH3) - cabbage, sulfur, gasoline
Skatole (3-methyl-1h-indole) - mothball, feces
Cadaverine (C5H14N2) - corpses, urine
Putrescine (NH2(CHH2)4NH2) - decaying flesh
Isovaleric Acid - sweat, rancid-cheese, rotten milk
------------------------------------
I've had this range of odor to varying degrees over the past... gosh, maybe 4 years or so (or more) that i've had bad breath. i'd like to think i'm over the room clearing heights of last year and i'm back to personal distance offending, but i really should get this test done, as should all of you who have similar undiagnoised symptoms.
As far as I know there are a few breath clinics or ENT offices that have this kind of technology in the developed world. Not sure about costs, but I don't think they would be super-excessive.
#2
2nd January 2010
elgrizzle
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 125
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Gas Chromatography
Yes, gas chromatography mass spectrometry. They use this equipment for a myriad of measurements even beyond the gases that you mentioned. urea, d xylose, and glucose breath tests involve using this machine as well. It would be great if sufferers could use their breath samples to read the entire spectrum of gases. I could not find out if there is a gas chromatography machine at Vancouver General Hospital, but I will ask my metabolic specialist about this. This is something I have been thinking about for a while too.
The main problem is Doctors are not yet taking odor problems seriously. They need to be educated and enlightened.
I will make sure that we get research done. It might take a while, but it will happen. The thing is, (here is an example): Lets say someone finds out they have high methyl marcaptan emissions, then what do we do about it?
Measure the gases through out the day with different foods? Biopsies of tissues to see where the gases are present most?
Maybe we can invent a pill that metabolizes odorous gases into non odorous gases.
I should pick up a few chemistry and biology books.
Lets do research together on gases.
#3
3rd January 2010
scientist42
Site Owner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London
Posts: 725
Re: Gas Chromatography
OralChroma is the only budget gas chromatography (GC) available to measure breath odour:-
http://www.abilit-medical-and-enviro...roduct_01.html
I think it costs around 6,000 US dollars. But it is set up to only look at 3-4 smelly compounds eg hydrogen sulfide, methyl mercaptan, dimethyl sulfide.
A proper GC system by itself would cost a minimum of around 20,000 US dollars. This could produce lots of peaks corresponding to different smelly compounds.
GC combined with mass spectometry (MS) allows proper identification of peaks using an online library of peaks that correspond to different gases. This would cost upwards of 50,000 US Dollars.
Dr Preti has a GC in his lab in Monell Chemical Senses Centre, Philadelphia but the average wait to see him can be more than 6 months.
Arun
#4
3rd January 2010
vilenin89
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 174
Re: Gas Chromatography
it's important to remember that a lot of these non-metabollic severe cases of halitosis are impossible to "cure" and very difficult to treat. The goal is management. Personally even since getting my tonsils out, focusing on tongue scraping, keeping my mouth at neutral PH, and keeping a water bottle nearby to combat my chronic dry mouth I think I greatly improved my condition, but it is still strong enough at times for it to be at almost TMAU-like levels. I'm hoping I have some undiagnoised gum problem or leaky crown making the VSC's higher than they should be.
I'm seeing an ENT in a couple of days who is a bit of an expert in this field, but who knows hows much help he can be. It seems like a combination of poor salvia flow and a poor bacteria composition in my mouth screwed me. We'll see. I know it's going to be improved compared with this time last year when I wasn't even tongue scraping regularly and I still had my tonsils and a blockage in my sinuses.
The point of the test is to quantify levels and gauge progress in an objective manner. See what products could be more effective and if the level is normal, but the patient still has fecal breath she'd know to pursue TMAU testing, etc
#5
3rd January 2010
scientist42
Site Owner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London
Posts: 725
Re: Gas Chromatography
Yes, for people who have a marked tongue coating, I think scraping is the most effective INITIAL way to reduce the odour. Once the tongue has been scraped then one can always try other things to dislodge further tongue plaque. I sometimes gargle with diet coke then spit it out. Some people may only need to scrape the tongue twice a day but others may need to scrape after every meal/ drink.
Arun
#6
3rd January 2010
elgrizzle
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 125
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Gas Chromatography
Vilenin, I am not a big fan of supporting the Dr. Katz therbreath empire, but I ordered the K12 probiotics for the mouth. There was a study done to show that it reduced the VSCs in those who sufferer from halitosis (I can't remember if it was chronic halitosis though). There was also something convincing to say that those who are born with this strain of bacteria in their mouth have no bad breath problems. With all their advertisements just to get you to buy the product, there is a 100% money back guarantee, so I have nothing to lose but shipping, lol. I seem to have a similar condition to you. So I will be the guinea pig. It should arrive in about a week.
vilenin89
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 174
Gas Chromatography
For anyone who has an unexplained fecal odor, even of the room clearing variety and suspects TMAU or even tested for it and tested negative might consider getting this test done. I haven't yet personally. I think my condition has improved a little bit, but I've thought this before and I need to wait till I get more confirmation.
gas--- smell it causes
Methyl Meracapatan (CH3SH) - feces
Hydrogen Sulfide (H2s) - rotten eggs
Dimethyl Sulfide (CH3SCH3) - cabbage, sulfur, gasoline
Skatole (3-methyl-1h-indole) - mothball, feces
Cadaverine (C5H14N2) - corpses, urine
Putrescine (NH2(CHH2)4NH2) - decaying flesh
Isovaleric Acid - sweat, rancid-cheese, rotten milk
------------------------------------
I've had this range of odor to varying degrees over the past... gosh, maybe 4 years or so (or more) that i've had bad breath. i'd like to think i'm over the room clearing heights of last year and i'm back to personal distance offending, but i really should get this test done, as should all of you who have similar undiagnoised symptoms.
As far as I know there are a few breath clinics or ENT offices that have this kind of technology in the developed world. Not sure about costs, but I don't think they would be super-excessive.
#2
2nd January 2010
elgrizzle
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 125
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Gas Chromatography
Yes, gas chromatography mass spectrometry. They use this equipment for a myriad of measurements even beyond the gases that you mentioned. urea, d xylose, and glucose breath tests involve using this machine as well. It would be great if sufferers could use their breath samples to read the entire spectrum of gases. I could not find out if there is a gas chromatography machine at Vancouver General Hospital, but I will ask my metabolic specialist about this. This is something I have been thinking about for a while too.
The main problem is Doctors are not yet taking odor problems seriously. They need to be educated and enlightened.
I will make sure that we get research done. It might take a while, but it will happen. The thing is, (here is an example): Lets say someone finds out they have high methyl marcaptan emissions, then what do we do about it?
Measure the gases through out the day with different foods? Biopsies of tissues to see where the gases are present most?
Maybe we can invent a pill that metabolizes odorous gases into non odorous gases.
I should pick up a few chemistry and biology books.
Lets do research together on gases.
#3
3rd January 2010
scientist42
Site Owner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London
Posts: 725
Re: Gas Chromatography
OralChroma is the only budget gas chromatography (GC) available to measure breath odour:-
http://www.abilit-medical-and-enviro...roduct_01.html
I think it costs around 6,000 US dollars. But it is set up to only look at 3-4 smelly compounds eg hydrogen sulfide, methyl mercaptan, dimethyl sulfide.
A proper GC system by itself would cost a minimum of around 20,000 US dollars. This could produce lots of peaks corresponding to different smelly compounds.
GC combined with mass spectometry (MS) allows proper identification of peaks using an online library of peaks that correspond to different gases. This would cost upwards of 50,000 US Dollars.
Dr Preti has a GC in his lab in Monell Chemical Senses Centre, Philadelphia but the average wait to see him can be more than 6 months.
Arun
#4
3rd January 2010
vilenin89
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 174
Re: Gas Chromatography
it's important to remember that a lot of these non-metabollic severe cases of halitosis are impossible to "cure" and very difficult to treat. The goal is management. Personally even since getting my tonsils out, focusing on tongue scraping, keeping my mouth at neutral PH, and keeping a water bottle nearby to combat my chronic dry mouth I think I greatly improved my condition, but it is still strong enough at times for it to be at almost TMAU-like levels. I'm hoping I have some undiagnoised gum problem or leaky crown making the VSC's higher than they should be.
I'm seeing an ENT in a couple of days who is a bit of an expert in this field, but who knows hows much help he can be. It seems like a combination of poor salvia flow and a poor bacteria composition in my mouth screwed me. We'll see. I know it's going to be improved compared with this time last year when I wasn't even tongue scraping regularly and I still had my tonsils and a blockage in my sinuses.
The point of the test is to quantify levels and gauge progress in an objective manner. See what products could be more effective and if the level is normal, but the patient still has fecal breath she'd know to pursue TMAU testing, etc
#5
3rd January 2010
scientist42
Site Owner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London
Posts: 725
Re: Gas Chromatography
Yes, for people who have a marked tongue coating, I think scraping is the most effective INITIAL way to reduce the odour. Once the tongue has been scraped then one can always try other things to dislodge further tongue plaque. I sometimes gargle with diet coke then spit it out. Some people may only need to scrape the tongue twice a day but others may need to scrape after every meal/ drink.
Arun
#6
3rd January 2010
elgrizzle
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 125
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Gas Chromatography
Vilenin, I am not a big fan of supporting the Dr. Katz therbreath empire, but I ordered the K12 probiotics for the mouth. There was a study done to show that it reduced the VSCs in those who sufferer from halitosis (I can't remember if it was chronic halitosis though). There was also something convincing to say that those who are born with this strain of bacteria in their mouth have no bad breath problems. With all their advertisements just to get you to buy the product, there is a 100% money back guarantee, so I have nothing to lose but shipping, lol. I seem to have a similar condition to you. So I will be the guinea pig. It should arrive in about a week.